QSL Cards

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QSL Cards

Postby KN4Y » Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:37 am

:P The ARRL ten meter contest had a large number of logs with over 500 QSO's, this is staggering, the average log, I guess, is 200 QSO's. Now the contest is over and a ten number can be determined for each ten-ten member in the contest. A QSL card could be sent and the data verified. (Number & county). :cry: But the number cannot be used for ten-ten awards. The ten-ten number must be exchanged over the air. I thought the purpose of Ten-Ten International was to foster more activity on ten meters. The use of a QSL card would give ten-ten members the incentive to operate on ten meters during contests. :evil:

I think it is time Ten-Ten International joins in the endeavor to increase activity on the ten meter band. P.S. I have sent this request to the Board of Directors, but my letter seems to get lost somewhere in the mail system. :?

QSL cards are a way of life with Amateur Radio Operators, why not take advantage of this fact. Agree? or Disagree? :mrgreen:
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Re: QSL Cards

Postby K4QHH » Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:04 am

Disagree (even though it is darn near Christmas). In the 10 Meter ARRL contest there was certain information that you must pass to count the QSO toward the contest results, the exchanging of 10-10 numbers is analogous. Both must be exchanged on the air. This is the same with almost any club or contest I have been involved with, i.e. there is certain information that must be passed On The Air.

But that is just a personal opinion.

Merry Christmas & hope to catch you on 10M sometime.

73

Bob
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Re: QSL Cards

Postby N9AVY » Fri Dec 26, 2008 2:40 pm

I also have to disagree. In a contest situation (non-10X) asking for a 10-10 number frustrates most contesters because the extra time to pass it (and maybe remember it) will adversely affect the "Q rate" (number of contacts per minute/hour). This may not seem like a big deal to the 10-10 crowd, but contesters get upset over this because it can cost them a contact or two when passing a 10-10 number. Some contesters will pass up a contact if the operator is going to slow or is passing info other than required stuff. Contesters take contesting very serious.

I have hundreds of QSLs from stations I never asked for 10-10 number over the air - can't count them. Sad fact of life on 10 meters. With band conditions starting to improve, it might be best just to get on the air to call "CQ 10-10" or check into the chapter nets. While piling up a few thousand 10-10 numbers is an admirable thing, it's best if one does it "by the book" according to 10-10 policy. The rules are the rules. They were created to keep everyone on the same page.
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Re: QSL Cards

Postby KK3Q » Fri Dec 26, 2008 2:59 pm

KN4Y wrote:I think it is time Ten-Ten International joins in the endeavor to increase activity on the ten meter band. P.S. I have sent this request to the Board of Directors, but my letter seems to get lost somewhere in the mail system. :?

QSL cards are a way of life with Amateur Radio Operators, why not take advantage of this fact. Agree? or Disagree? :mrgreen:


I also disagree, the 10-10 rules define a legal 10-10 contact as:

A legal 10-10 contact must be a two-way contact exclusively on ten meters. A legal contact consists of the call, 10-10 number, name, date, and QTH (state or country).

It may sound legalistic but these are the rules everyone follows when exchanging 10-10 information and QSO's during a contest have little bearing on them. As Bob already stated, this is a requirement of all contests (ever work the November Sweeps on CW? :shock: ).

To say that 10-10 should join in the endeavor to increase activity on the 10 meter band tells me you might be unfamiliar with 10-10's history which is available here: http://www.ten-ten.org/history.html.

As for using the QSL cards, just ask yourself if the QSL card fits the 10-10 rule of a legal contact above. If it is QSL for a contact where you exchanged numbers then it is fine to use it (such as for certain 10-10 and chapter awards).

Using a 10-10 number posted on a QSL card that you did not exchange over the air kind of flies in the face of the 10-10 definition of a legal contact as listed above. Case on point, I received my QSL card from 5U5U the other day and there it was, 10-10 #45817 printed on the back of the card. Can I use it for credit? Well, I didn't exchange my number with them and they did not exchange this number with me over the air. Believe me; it is tempting as I could really use an African QSL card for 10-10 WAC! But I didn't actually work within the simple rules that 10-10 gives us so I voluntarily disqualify my contact with 5U5U as a legal contact according to 10-10 rules.

Again as Bob stated, the various contests, clubs, QSO parties that we enter all have their various rules and most seem to be at odds with other organizations. But that is what makes our hobby so cool; we are not a bunch of lemmings following the same old trail. :D
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Re: QSL Cards

Postby N9AVY » Fri Dec 26, 2008 3:03 pm

Forgot to mention that QSL cards may no longer be "a way of life". Ham Radio is moving more and more into digital age with things like ARRL's Logbook of the World (LoTW) and Eqsl. Postage rates are going up again very soon. Right now, at 42 cents (84 if you send a return envelope) the cost can run up if one makes a lot of contacts. Send out 100 cards and you've spent $42... send return envelope (SASE) and you're up to 84 bucks ! If you're making DX contacts the price icreases dramatically since you need to enclose a couple International Reply Coupons (IRCs - about $1.60 each) or send a couple "Greenstamps" (2 U.S. Dollars). Add overseas postage on the envelope and you're up to $3 per card ! So, 100 DX cards sent via USPS would cost around $300 - a hit to the old budget.

Electronic QSLing is here with LoTW and Eqsl. It's less of a drain on the budget and is fast and easy. From my experience, I've found LoTW to be the best because of the returns. I've loaded about 10,000 Q's from 1978 to date on BOTH LoTW and Eqsl with the better return rate coming from LoTW. Every week it seems there are confirmations popping up from a few years back due to more folks jumping on to LoTW. With every LoTW confirmation, I think of all the $$$ I'm saving.

With Eqsl, I tend not to upload logs very often and find that I tend to confirm every QSO whether they're in log or not. Guess I'm too lazy to check logs. :)

As for the paper QSLs, working at the ARRL W9 Incoming Bureau, I see fewer cards coming in every month. The decrease could be attributed to electronic QSLing or the fact that the bands have been crummy the past couple years. Whatever the reason, the incoming cards have been fewer.

So, with the economy in a slump, I rather expect that electronic QSLing may be the best/cheapest way to go. We're all going to try to stretch those dollars available for the hobby as far as possible. ... Cards, envelopes, postage all add up and many of us just toss the cards in a drawer or box on the shelf.
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Re: QSL Cards

Postby KN4Y » Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:07 pm

[quote]A legal 10-10 contact must be a two-way contact exclusively on ten meters. A legal contact consists of the call, 10-10 number, name, date, and QTH (state or country).

This rule was made by ten-ten members and can be changed by ten-ten members. If the words, "Including a valid contest exhange during a contest and the contact confirmed by the exchange of QSL cards". (eQSL and LOTW can be added if desired.)

This will give more ten-ten members the incentive to operate on ten meters during a contest. That is our purpose, to increase activity on ten meters. Why limit it to nets, casual operating and ten-ten QSO parties. Ten-Ten international used to have a QSL card available for members, why not put them to a good use.
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Re: QSL Cards

Postby W5DJT » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:41 pm

I tend not to upload logs very often and find that I tend to confirm every QSO whether they're in log or not. Guess I'm too lazy to check logs


The exact reason electronic qsl's shouldn't be allowed.
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Re: QSL Cards

Postby N9AVY » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:27 pm

Electronic QSLs are here to stay ! Sorry, but snail mail QSLs may go the way of whale oil lamps.

If I operate a contest and 600 Q's or more, there is no way that I'm going to sit there looking up addresses, filing out cards and spending 27 cents a card ! The time I spend doing that means more time away from actual on the air operating , home projects (housecleaning for this single guy) and away from the never-ending paperwork of my business.

Now if one of you anti-electronic QSL card folks want to be my QSL Manager and subsidize me by providing cards, envelopes, labor and stamps... I might be willing to jump on the anti-electronic QSL card bandwagon. But until then, I'll just keep on sending QSLs via LoTW and the less-than=desirable Eqsl.

Jerry N9AVY

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Re: QSL Cards

Postby WB9OMC » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:54 am

W5DJT wrote:
I tend not to upload logs very often and find that I tend to confirm every QSO whether they're in log or not. Guess I'm too lazy to check logs


The exact reason electronic qsl's shouldn't be allowed.


Hmmm....I came here for a mildly related reason and see that my input might be good in response to a few points/comments.

Brief introduction - I'm a Life Member of 10-10 who also happens to serve on the Advisory Board of eQSL.

First, let's start with the quote from W5DJT - eQSL does NOT want people to "confirm every QSO whether they're in the log or not" !!!!!!! That's no different than if you just shipped off a QSL card via snail mail for every one that comes in without ever bothering to verify the information in your paper logs (used the old-fashioned model here and as it happens, I am *still* logging on paper!!! - I do manual entry into eQSL later....). That leads to fraudulent awards claims, amongst other things. eQSL has, does and will continue to kick people off for this!!! In the electronic world, the QSO's need to match within a certain percentage of accuracy IFFF YOU LET THE EQSL SYSTEM DO ITS JOB. Simply trying to "blanket approve" everything and bypass the system is, and meaning no disrespect, irresponsible.

I would let a representative of ARRL speak for LOTW, as for eQSL if you create a good profile for each account that you use and LET THE SYSTEM DO THE WORK you will get accurate results *to the extent that the OTHER guy does the same thing*. If you use the system properly, it will work for you.

As for the other comment "The exact reason electronic qsl's shouldn't be allowed" ......... well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. :-) My guess is that this statement is based upon either ignorance of either/both eQSL and LOTW or is the result of somebody making some claims that electronic QSL'ing is less secure or whatever other baloney.

Folks, if two people want to get together and create bogus QSO's in a log and generate bogus QSL's either electronically OR on paper and via the SnailMail, they can do it. If those bogus cards get submitted for some award someplace and they match up, how will a manual card checker know that they are bogus? The same is true of any electronic system - if the people on either end create a bogus QSO and then enter the information into an electronic QSL system and a match is generated the system cannot tell that it was bogus. This process has ALWAYS depended upon the honesty of the participants - IMHO, the vast majority, probably 99.9% of Amateurs want to EARN their awards properly and only a very small minority are interested in a fradulent award. IMHO, such people are beneath contempt and certainly do NOT deserve either the Award or frankly, an Amateur Radio license.

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Re: QSL Cards

Postby WB9OMC » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:56 am

N9AVY wrote:Electronic QSLs are here to stay ! Sorry, but snail mail QSLs may go the way of whale oil lamps.

If I operate a contest and 600 Q's or more, there is no way that I'm going to sit there looking up addresses, filing out cards and spending 27 cents a card ! The time I spend doing that means more time away from actual on the air operating , home projects (housecleaning for this single guy) and away from the never-ending paperwork of my business.

Now if one of you anti-electronic QSL card folks want to be my QSL Manager and subsidize me by providing cards, envelopes, labor and stamps... I might be willing to jump on the anti-electronic QSL card bandwagon. But until then, I'll just keep on sending QSLs via LoTW and the less-than=desirable Eqsl.

Jerry N9AVY

ARRL W9 QSL Bureau Dispatcher (D suffix)


Hi Jerry! What would you say makes eQSL "less-than=desireable" ??? Perhaps you have concerns that can be addressed.........

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Re: QSL Cards

Postby WB9OMC » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:59 am

KC4TVZ wrote:Electronic QSL cards shouldn't be allowed? The only time I ever had to send in my real QSL cards for a Ten-Ten Award was back in 1994 for the WAS award. The rest of the Awards was as easy as sending a LOG into the Awards Managers. eQSL cards are simply a way to save on postage, so I like them and think they should be allowed. Its probably to late to stop them now, if it needed to be done. Its just one of them things that probably would be hard to police anyway.

73 KC4TVZ Todd


I might add that IFFF you are logged on to eQSL while on the air and your QSO-in-progress is also an eQSL member you can have the QSO confirmed, on the screen and if desired print the card at home literally before the QSO is over. Been there and done that. Not only is it less expensive, it CAN also be a heck of a lot faster than a paper card via snail mail. Just depends on what you both do....

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Re: QSL Cards

Postby WB9OMC » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:10 am

Quick comment about getting cards *back* via an electronic QSL system. Just like with paper cards via snail-mail, this is only as good, only as fast and only as accurate as both ends of the contact make it. I find that my return rate NOW (2009) is actually better than snail-mail was, whereas whenever it was that I first started with eQSL it was about even or with DX, marginally worse. DX membership has gone up which means an improved return rate, and it's funny that I will occasionally get a card from a 10-10 contact 15 years ago which means that somebody has just joined the system and probably realized that he has X hundred cards waiting for him! :-) It happens.

People are frequently surprised when they join up - if you go to the eQSL home page and input someone's callsign you can often get a "radio button" that says something like "see if cards waiting". I've done that now and then and seen where somebody may have, literally, a hundred, two hundred or more confirmations sitting there. As to whether or not those would be new or duplicates to paper cards only that person could tell you. But more people are getting into electronic QSL'ing all the time as evidenced by eQSL having had to upgrade our computer facilities a number of times to handle the load. No kidding on that.....the numbers are staggering.

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Re: QSL Cards

Postby WB9OMC » Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:09 am

Todd wrote: "One thing with eQSL, they only have a spot for 10 meters, no spot for frequency, I have noticed"

Todd, do you find that this is ever a problem for any award, etc? One thing that you can do if someone needs the specific frequency on an eQSL from you is to put it in the comment field on the card. If you upload an ADIF file from a computer logger and have one that you know needs it, just go in manually with the EDIT button on the left side of your Log/Outbox.

Personally, I would rather see the frequency be more specific as well. But it seems to have become more and more popular even on pre-print cards in the box marked "MHz" to just put 28 for a 10 meter contact. I don't know if any of the ones that I ever turned in for some award or certificate (Like my 10-10 WAS or VP WAS) only had that but in either case, none of the cards was refused or rejected.

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Re: QSL Cards

Postby WB9OMC » Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:26 am

Now - I can finally get to what brought me to this area in the first place. :lol:

Some of you who have worked me at one time or another and who have exchanged eQSL's with me may possibly have gotten some eQSL's with erroneous information. It is my fault, and I have recently spent a fair amount of time correcting that in my OUTBOX on the eQSL system. I will also post this off to the newly reformed mailing list in order that it reaches the largest number of 10-10 folks whose e-cards from me might have been wrong.

I *think* I now have my individual accounts set up correctly so that the eQSL's and the information on them accurately reflects where I was operating from AT THAT TIME. So, no /4 portable contacts should come back with a credit for Indiana when they should say Tennessee - or other silly screwups like that.

If you think you have worked me and exchanged a card via eQSL you may wish to compare whatever you (might have) printed with what's there now; hopefully this will not have adversely affected anyone's cards being used for an award.

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Re: QSL Cards

Postby WB9OMC » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:27 am

KC4TVZ wrote:The eQSL cards are the BEST in my opinion.
#1.) I won a FREE Gold Membership to eQSL
#2.) eQSL saves so much postage.
#3.) LoTW is a NIGHTMARE to renew a Certificate. Chandra just renewed, it was a NIGHTMARE!
The W3IZ at the ARRL, Volunteer, I guess was messing around in Chandra's WAS award account.
He was saying she set it up wrong or something about she didn't add a callsign rule.
She had the account for 3 years and KA1RWY never said anything.

Right now, I really have had it with the ARRL and LoTW, if it wasn't for those QST magazines
I would drop the ARRL and LoTW like a HOT TATER, because they guard the Certificates like GOLD
and then their workers can mess around in someones WAS award account like that.

Yeah eQSL is BETTER....bottom line...

73 KC4TVZ Todd


Todd, sorry you had problems with LOTW. It would not be appropriate for me to comment on that, but I do appreciate the kind comments regarding eQSL.

I DO agree that QST is a good magazine, and I have to say that if there is one thing that ARRL does (IMHO indisputably) right, it is the books they publish. I have NEVER been disappointed, anything from a repeater directory to a full-size-with-CD-Handbook. A bit pricey at times but I think they give a good bang-for-the-buck in the book department. When I gave up my ARRL membership I really did miss QST; always thought the articles on operating, do-it-yourself, equipment reviews were first rate.

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